Unknown Pack Frame Sadlle

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Efthy

Greetings everyone!

I was advised to ask for your knowledge in this forum.

I recently acquired this pack frame and i am trying to find more info about it...

This pack frame has been located in Greece. Original thought of mine was that it's origin could be Austro Hungarian.
Greeks rarely constructed something domestic and vast majority of the equipment was imported.

Thank you!
[img=http://s2.postimg.org/tbyql1fjp/IMG_2228.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/l3wt01nn9/IMG_2229.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/ggqqya0ad/IMG_2230.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/3ya5hp3at/IMG_2231.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/8vnq2t59x/IMG_2232.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/f0f8g4xdh/IMG_2233.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/eu1jd1o8l/IMG_2234.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/oiae2fto5/IMG_2235.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/ukr7kewvp/IMG_2236.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/sc8fpc0dx/IMG_2237.jpg]

[img=http://s2.postimg.org/e0tiy67lh/IMG_2238.jpg]
Alex
Society Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:21 am
Last Name: Mezentsev

Donation 1st

Hi and welcome!

Is it rust or somebody painted it with black? Does this frame carry any marks or stamps?
Looks like Tragsattel 23 which German Gebirgsjager used to pack their guns.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8240&start=0

or it might be Yugoslav pack saddle.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=659920
Efthy

Thank you! Nice to found your forum!

Well it looks like it was rusted and someone painted it with a varnish thus it looks kinda thick black color..
I am considering the idea of fine blast the thing so to see if I can locate and markings..

Regarding the 2 possibilities it's not any of them..

What made me think it may be western made item is that the top rectangular frame is connected with 4 hexagonal screws that have the soft alloy safety pin on the washer... Usually I see this in British and American made equipment.. But that's my though and I may be wrong..
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7532
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Society Member

Donation 3rd

You might want to take a look at the threads on German and Swiss packsaddles on this site. They have a lot of photographs and you may be able to basically match these up with one of them.

A Yugoslavian pack saddle would not have occurred to me, so that's an interesting possibility. It's worth noting there that Yugoslavian equipment trends in some examples rather heavily towards German patterns, so their post war equipment is sort of an interesting mix of German WWII vintage patterns and WWII and post war Soviet patterns, so their use of a German pattern here, somewhat modified, wouldn't be too surprising. Yugoslavia remained quite rustic for many years following WWII and there was a fair amount of equine use there during the war.
Alex
Society Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:21 am
Last Name: Mezentsev

Donation 1st

Pat Holscher wrote:You might want to take a look at the threads on German and Swiss packsaddles on this site. They have a lot of photographs and you may be able to basically match these up with one of them.

A Yugoslavian pack saddle would not have occurred to me, so that's an interesting possibility. It's worth noting there that Yugoslavian equipment trends in some examples rather heavily towards German patterns, so their post war equipment is sort of an interesting mix of German WWII vintage patterns and WWII and post war Soviet patterns, so their use of a German pattern here, somewhat modified, wouldn't be too surprising. Yugoslavia remained quite rustic for many years following WWII and there was a fair amount of equine use there during the war.
Pat,

the last time Soviet horse equipment was changed was before Great War and in some cases after the Russian Civil War. There were not much to change. And Yugoslavian... Well Soviet Union didn't had so much influence on them. They used alot of equipment on which they can lay their hands on. They used Spitfires, MiGs, Sabers, Thunderjets, Sikorskys, German tanks and weapons from all over the Warsaw Pact and sometimes from NATO countries.
Their horse equipment was heavily influenced however by German, Austrian, Turks and local traditions. Russian\Soviet? If do, then very little.
Alex
Society Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:21 am
Last Name: Mezentsev

Donation 1st

Efthy wrote:Thank you! Nice to found your forum!

Well it looks like it was rusted and someone painted it with a varnish thus it looks kinda thick black color..
I am considering the idea of fine blast the thing so to see if I can locate and markings..

Regarding the 2 possibilities it's not any of them..

What made me think it may be western made item is that the top rectangular frame is connected with 4 hexagonal screws that have the soft alloy safety pin on the washer... Usually I see this in British and American made equipment.. But that's my though and I may be wrong..
There's a couple of things. First, you may search the Society, here were a few topics on Balkan\Yugoslavian horse equipment as Pat Holcher rightly pointed out. Second, you may need to put your saddle in kerosene to remove the rust and paint and then look up for markings.
As for the Western made equipment, well, the Greece was under heavy influence of British during some period of history. So it is possible that the pack saddle is British. American? I'm not a big expert but I haven't seen such pack saddles in American inventory, nor military nor commercial.
Also there's a possibility that this saddle was made in Turkey. Greece and most of this region was under Turkish influence of direct rule for quite a time.

I hope it helps you.
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7532
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Society Member

Donation 3rd

Alex wrote:
Efthy wrote:Thank you! Nice to found your forum!

Well it looks like it was rusted and someone painted it with a varnish thus it looks kinda thick black color..
I am considering the idea of fine blast the thing so to see if I can locate and markings..

Regarding the 2 possibilities it's not any of them..

What made me think it may be western made item is that the top rectangular frame is connected with 4 hexagonal screws that have the soft alloy safety pin on the washer... Usually I see this in British and American made equipment.. But that's my though and I may be wrong..
There's a couple of things. First, you may search the Society, here were a few topics on Balkan\Yugoslavian horse equipment as Pat Holscher rightly pointed out. Second, you may need to put your saddle in kerosene to remove the rust and paint and then look up for markings.
As for the Western made equipment, well, the Greece was under heavy influence of British during some period of history. So it is possible that the pack saddle is British. American? I'm not a big expert but I haven't seen such pack saddles in American inventory, nor military nor commercial.
Also there's a possibility that this saddle was made in Turkey. Greece and most of this region was under Turkish influence of direct rule for quite a time.

I hope it helps you.
It's not a British pattern, so we can rule that one out. The British UP based pack saddles are fairly distinct looking and this one doesn't match that pattern.

If it came from the former Yugoslavia, my guess is, based upon what all we've explored above, is that it's a German pattern, but it might not be of German manufacture. Yugoslavia manufactured some German type equipment, often with some local variation, post war.

But, cleaned up, we might have more to go on. Markings would indeed reveal a great deal.
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7532
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Society Member

Donation 3rd

Alex wrote:
Pat Holscher wrote:You might want to take a look at the threads on German and Swiss packsaddles on this site. They have a lot of photographs and you may be able to basically match these up with one of them.

A Yugoslavian pack saddle would not have occurred to me, so that's an interesting possibility. It's worth noting there that Yugoslavian equipment trends in some examples rather heavily towards German patterns, so their post war equipment is sort of an interesting mix of German WWII vintage patterns and WWII and post war Soviet patterns, so their use of a German pattern here, somewhat modified, wouldn't be too surprising. Yugoslavia remained quite rustic for many years following WWII and there was a fair amount of equine use there during the war.
Pat,

the last time Soviet horse equipment was changed was before Great War and in some cases after the Russian Civil War. There were not much to change. And Yugoslavian... Well Soviet Union didn't had so much influence on them. They used alot of equipment on which they can lay their hands on. They used Spitfires, MiGs, Sabers, Thunderjets, Sikorskys, German tanks and weapons from all over the Warsaw Pact and sometimes from NATO countries.
Their horse equipment was heavily influenced however by German, Austrian, Turks and local traditions. Russian\Soviet? If do, then very little.
I don't know that we've ever had a thread on Russian pack saddles. One would be interesting as that's a pattern or type that we've never had the opportunity to explore here.

Part of the problem for us is that photos of Russian horse equipments are surprisingly difficult to find. We don't seem to run into it now, unlike these other patterns, even though there had to have been vast quantities of it.
Alex
Society Member
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:21 am
Last Name: Mezentsev

Donation 1st

Pat,

then we're stick with a German\Austrian pattern for the time being. And I'm surely will be surprised if it's turn to be French or anyone else! :)
As for the Russian pack saddles... I'll try and find some pictures and post it here. Only hope that I will not forget the password for flickr as it was the last time and they have deleted my account with photos after half-year of inactivity.
And it reminds me - I should try and translate some info for you about Russian horse mounted unit in newly formed Mountain brigades, as promised in the last year.
Efthy

I think i found it!!

it is part of the 7 set 75mm Schneider-Danglis 06/09 Field Gun
the first photo is from Bulgarian Army and the second from Greek Army.
Especially in the first photo the lower part of the pack saddle is identical.

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